I'm going to preempt Andrew Sullivan and droolingly note that Spider-Man 2 brought in more in its opening weekend than F9/11. This doesn't prove that Spider-Man is per se a Republican—Stan Lee never said that outright. But Spidey's patriotic colors, concern for individual moral responsibility, and battle against a large, lumbering man with a questionable grasp on the truth all taken together suggests that Spider-Man stands for lower taxes and President Bush's war of liberation in Iraq.
Ah, I swear, one day soon we're going to get back to talking about important stuff over here, but I hope to forestall that by noting that everyone ought to get out and see Spider-Man 2. I caught an early matinee showing—not exactly filled with with web-heads dressed like Hobgoblin—and at the crucial subway scene, the entire theater erupted in applause. It's just very good—serious nerding off about it below the cut (spoiler-free!).
The reason that this sequel and its cousin, X-Men 2, have exceeded precedent and expectations is clearly due to the time-tested value of the original stories—and, unlike with Batman, a dedication to the original material. The X-Men's "Phoenix Saga" and Spider-Man's arch are both great—with the first a bit more episodically defined than the latter.
So how far will they take the Spidey series? The natural ending would be after the third film, with the Osborne family drama nicely topped off and MJ and Peter set to wed—but you can't tell me that they're going to close out the Spider-Man franchise without an appearance by Venom. There will be some problems fitting that story into Raimi's vision, since the Venom symbiote came from space (though I sort of see a possibility with J. Jonah Jamison's astronaut kid, if that's necessary). Plus Raimi obviously intends to work the Lizard in there somewhere (that's Dr. Connors, Peter Parker's professor in the film).
I think the only way to do the series right would entail only more film—with a slight dip into the sketchy villain team-up waters of the Batman films—featuring Hobgoblin and the Lizard. God knows if we pull any deeper from the Sinister Six bench than the Lizard, we're in some serious trouble. (If I so much as see a mean-looking fishbowl, much less Mysterio, I'll destroy everything.) I think Raimi's Venom would be goddamned fun, but I'm not sure how Raimi would go about pairing Spidey-vs-Venom with the appropriate tension from Peter Parker's personal life for a fourth film. Though the Mary Jane tension is great—you see the look she gives him at the very end of the film?—stretching it out over two to three more hours might not be feasible.
Matt Yglesias has some words (1, 2) on the Mary Jane/Peter Parker dynamic. Though the Spider-Man Gwen Stacy story (from which Kirsten Dunst's Mary Jane character heavily draws) has a tragic ending, I'm pretty sure that Hollywood dictates a comedic ending here. How many films (how much money) get made remains to be seen, but you can bet that it ends with Peter Parker and Mary Jane goin' to the chapel.
![]()
I think MJ's dead in the next movie. Here's why: For one, the Gwen Stacy character in the comics, from whom, as you point out, MJ in the movies draws a considerable part of her origin, dies in the comics. That's Spider-Man's second big tragedy and solidifies his "the ones I love are the ones that get jacked" theory. It really helps define his character. I think it needs to happen. For two, they seem to be going the (sort of) LOTR route with the tone of the conclusion of each movie so far (dark, light, dark), so the third one seems certain to end on a fairly depressing note. There are plenty of other ways for that to happen, but MJ dying would be a pretty good one. Finally, Kirsten Dunst is quoted in a number of interviews recently as saying she's done after the third movie. Since she's the only part of the second movie that turbosucked, I won't complain. And if she wants out, they'll need to get rid of her and find a new love interest. I doubt that they're willing to just recast the Mary Jane part, so I think they kill her and bring in someone new. Felicia Hardy? An Ultimates-style Gwen Stacy? J. Jonah Jameson's hot secretary? Whatever. Personally, I think the new love interest should be Luke Cage: Hero For Hire, but that's neither here nor there.
Posted by: Kevin at July 6, 2004 2:26 PMI believe I've read that Raimi plans on this being a trilogy. So I suspect Harry becomes the Hobgoblin, bankrolls and then sabotages Dr. Connors and enlists the Lizard as his lackey. Here's a question though: Connors appeared to be teaching Physics in the last movie. How will the regeneration thing make sense in this context? (Yes, this is horrible nerd nitpicking).
As for Venom -- he was my favorite villain when I was a kid. Really, the spiderman villains are pretty weak overall, and Venom was the only really frightening one. But his origin is stupid, and they've already kind of covered the evil symbiote thing with their treatment of Doc Ock. They could always replace "moon symbiote" with "nanomachines" to continue the corrupting-technology-produces-villain theme, then use Venom to explore Spidey's choice not to exploit his powers -- that being the other traditional side of the character, and the one that has only been lightly dealt with so far (conflict over selling photos, and the consequences of Spiderman's wrestling appearance). But I suspect they'll just do one more movie, with Lizard and GG/HG.
Posted by: tom at July 6, 2004 2:55 PMThey can't kill MJ and make more movies, unless they're prepared to make shitty Batman sequels or do something entirely unprecedented. After a serial trilogy of MJ films ending in her death, no one is going to see any Gwen or whoever replacing her as anything but a ho-bag. Unless the director/studio is really interested in developing the new girl—could you do that in a single film and make it convincing? (You could maybe do it in two films, or preemptively introduce her in S-M 3, though how you go about that and not get the full weepy effect of MJ's death isn't clear.)
Still, my instinct is that this series will absolutely include a fourth film, but I haven't read that Raimi has called for a trilogy cap. I think Hollywood will catch wind of this Venom character that all the kids love and absolutely throw a fit until Sam Raimi submits to directing it for 10 bazillion dollars. And really, doesn't Venom pretty much constitute part of the history of SM? Pretty much the only development that's mattered since 1967 or so. They've got a stellar screenwriter on this project, so maybe he can work it out—but I foresee a terrible mistake after S-M 3.
It's probably a disaster if they go past three, but if they do, I think they need to whack MJ, toss Venom in the mix, and let Spidey hit up that skinny German chick—part of the grieving process, etc. After that, PP starts drinking, puts on weight, takes on a successively degrading host of villains like Molten Man and Morbius, maybe with a little help from Speedball or soemthing. Ends up released straight to VHS, not even DVD.
Posted by: Kriston at July 6, 2004 3:40 PMI have it in my living will that if I ever understand what the hell the preceding three comments are talking about, I am to be euthanized with extreme prejudice.
Posted by: norbizness at July 6, 2004 8:56 PM*thwip*
Posted by: Kevin at July 7, 2004 11:50 AMLooking good Kriston.
Posted by: matt at July 7, 2004 4:08 PMVenom would be hard to do well as a character introduced in a single film. They could probably do something like the nanomachine out to get around staging some absurd Secret Wars, but a big part of what makes him interesting is the fusion of the man who blames Spidey for ruining his career and the costume with the bizarro love-hate for Peter.
Posted by: Julian Sanchez at July 7, 2004 4:31 PMwhat the hell, you know matt hardigree, kriston?
hey, matt, it's matt, from the texan. fancy meeting you here.
Posted by: matty at July 7, 2004 5:44 PMIt'd be easy enough to get Venom into the game if they used the scorned John Jameson. Send him into space, have him run across a symbiote, somehow get the thing onto spider-man and then have spider-man reject it. It could then find its way back to Jameson, who already hates Peter/Spider-man and boom: VENOM. I agree, though, that this process should take two movies. And, of course this would demand rejecting some serious canon, which they've seemed sort of unwilling to do with their villains, so far, as at least the foundation of their origins have been rooted in the comics. Whatever. I just want me some Venom. Cue Lilly complaining about us being nerds...
Posted by: Kevin at July 7, 2004 9:25 PMNow that I think about it Eddie Brock's journalistic roots are key to Venom's character. It's always Spider-Man's actions that bring trouble into Peter Parker's life, and Parker ruining Brock's career reverses that action. Plus, if MJ's ex-fiance became Venom, you'd think that PP might eventually come to the realization that this chick is sort of a pain in the ass.
But I still have no clue about the oddly pedophilic scenes with that eurotrash neighbor.
Posted by: Kriston at July 9, 2004 1:05 AMI agree with you about Brock's history as a journalist. He's Spider-man's shadow, or opposite number, in virtually every way. That makes Brock a considerably more interesting character than would Jameson as Venom if they tried to put the costume on him. But there's the fact that the symbiote came from the secret wars, which they definitely couldn't introduce into the Spider-Man universe because it sucks really bad. So it seems they're left with Jameson as the source for the symbiote. But, if they do it in two movies, as they should, there's no reason they couldn't have Jameson bring it back and Eddie Brock be the one to put it on.
Posted by: Kevin at July 9, 2004 6:58 AMGood lord, just imagine. The Secret Wars: The Movie. Who will play the Celestials? I think that McFarlane/Michelinie (whoever) did a pretty amazing turnabout with that plotline. It seems that Raimi is staying true to the source but I think S-M would honestly be better served if someone whipped up a nanotech black costume and started from there. It's sort of thorny getting the costume on Spider-Man, but it's harder to get aliens to him.
Posted by: Kriston at July 9, 2004 9:36 AMHas Frank Rich been reading G.p.?
Posted by: PG at July 12, 2004 5:22 AMGive please. His priority did not seem to be to teach them what he knew, but rather to impress upon them that nothing, not even... knowledge, was foolproof.
I am from Kenya and also now'm speaking English, please tell me right I wrote the following sentence: "jimmy mcnulty was glamorous for delivering the hooters declared under rawls' wiretap."
Waiting for a reply :-D, Brenda.
Posted by: Brenda at September 5, 2009 5:39 PM