Kevin Drum has some choice words for a few visible pro-lifers who are sticking up for Karen Hughes, whose comment
I think after September 11th the American people are valuing life more and realizing that we need policies to value the dignity and worth of every life....The fundamental difference between us and the terror network we fight is that we value every life.irritated at least a good million people this past weekend. The Calpundit:
This is typical of the pro-life crowd: most of them are plainly unwilling to face up to the logical consequences of their beliefs and too cowardly to make their real case to the American public.I came up with a similar formulation in an argument with an anti-abortion individual a while back. In all honesty, it's an unwieldy argument, and the line I was using was even tackier. The person with whom I debated vehemently asserted that there was no distinction whatsoever between abortion and murder—but there most certainly is. If a person has some indication that mass murder is taking place, and can even reasonably identify who the murderers are, wouldn't you doubt that person's dedication to stopping the evil of murder if he in fact did nothing to stop it? I of course don't hold baseball-bat wielding conservatives crowding around the clinic in high regard, but that would in a sense be an action consistent with the rhetoric.[The pro-lifer in question, NRO's Ramesh Ponnuru] is right: if abortion is murder, then anyone who gets an abortion should be jailed. Anybody who performs an abortion should be put on death row. Anybody who supports abortion rights is little better than a mobster or a terrorist.
But if that's what they believe — and they do — why does he think it's unwise to admit it in public? The question answers itself, doesn't it?
Again, let me say that this reasoning was introduced after the debate turned nasty, and it's not a line of reasoning that I'm terribly interested in defending here, so put your damned trigger-typing-fingers down. Allow me to start from the gutter and work my way out, because I think I can rephrase that chain of thought into my fundamental answer to criticism of abortion.
So the absence of that justifiably violent crowd obviates the fact that people inherently recognize that abortion does not explicitly equal murder. (I'm assuming here a level moral playing field, in which all of us would go to extraordinary lengths to prevent a murder the details of which we were privy beforehand. Certain Objectivists may understandably exclude themselves from such consideration.) Without getting into the particulars about why this is, I'm going to bracket that effect and slide over to the viability question. I see an extraordinarily appreciable difference between a human being (say, me) and a zygote. For instance I just typed everything you just read, and at the same time made myself a sandwich, turned on ESPN, and filled my dog's food bowl. Not only can a zygote do none of those things, you can't even see a zygote. Zygotes are dull. It's tremendously difficult for me to imagine despairing over the loss/disorganization of a zygote, except inasmuch as I would empathize with a woman's or couple's disappointment over such. But I would be appreciably more grief-struck by the loss of, say, that woman—which would be a death.
There is always an effort on the part of anti-abortion advocates—in lieu of a "bright line" distinguishing measure at which point a fetus becomes a human—to slide that point to conception. It's a reasonable enough effort, considering the none-too-daunting bundle of questions surrounding life and souls and what-not. My stab at an answer to that one, frankly, is that complexity will have to do—and it obviously suffices. The real consequences of legalized abortion do not amount to the state of affairs that extreme conservative rhetoric implies.
I understand that my foetal readership may take umbrage with my explicitly stated preference for Born-Americans, but let me state that my estimation of a being progresses significantly from its conception, evolving even into fundamental respect at birth. Like most Born-Americans I feel uncomfortable with late-term abortions. While my defense of the right to abortion at any stage arises after other considerations, the healthier society is the one that witnesses fewer abortions. I'm led to believe that is also a goal of the conservative right, and yet I'm stunned at every turn to find that they do not, in fact, lead the cause to make contraception universally acceptable.
I recognize this essay is moral/metaphysical teeball—and useless as far as policy is concerned—but 1) Kevin said it first, blame him, 2) it's not easy to frame an answer to the fundamental question of life without getting into serious inside baseball, which you can find elsewhere, and 3) this complexity definition is my best stab at trying to answer the question conservatives always ask, about when life begins. So far as I can tell, it never "begins," and our society heeds those scare quotes in its general tolerance for abortion.
Posted by Kriston at April 29, 2004 8:58 PMHey, of course I'd go to any length if there was a murder happening right in front of me. Physical force is wrong. Abortion, on the other hand...
Posted by: walsh at April 29, 2004 9:49 PMKriston:
The problem with your assertion is that many people, especially young people (and what percentage of abortions are from people over 30 or over 40? not many) ...again... young people are mislead into thinking that they are aborting a clump of tissue which is part of their body and that this is their "fundamental right".
"forgiven them, Father, for they know not what they do".
In other words, they are not nearly as culpable as say... one who takes a knife and slit's another adult person's throat.
Does this make abortion any less murder than the latter example. Absolutely not. But the culpability factor is significant and this does render the point and logic of your post as rather pathetic due to glossing over this other issue.
Furthermore, anyone with half a brain know that if a substantial portion of pro-lifer took Kriston's bait, their actions would lead to more abortions, not less. Really, to ignore the things I present and to take Kriston's logic to its logical conclusions, prolifers would then be blocking entrances to abortion clinics with baseball bats or guns everywhere, everyday. Again, even if such actions were morally justified (an I'm NOT saying that they are), we all know that this would only lead to MORE abortions... thus defeating their intended purpose.
...moving on...
If you want some substantive discourse and information on this subject, read Norma McCorvey's (aka "Row") recent testimony here (a must read)
Also check out the following videos:
The Hard Truth is a video which can't be missed. If you only view one video I list, view this one.
Also, Silent Scream shows ultrasound of actual abortion. The "Fetus" goes nuts as it feels its body first starting to get sucked to pieces. Hard beats faster. Physically moves away from the source of the suction.
The fetus in "Silent Scream" is only 11 weeks past conception. At this point:
Heart Is Beating (Since 18-25 Days)
Brain Waves Have Been Recorded At 40 Days
Baby..
..Squints, Swallows, And Can Make A Fist
..Has Fingerprints And Can Kick
..Is Sensitive To Heat, Touch, Light And Noise
..Sucks His Or Her Thumb
..All Body Systems Are Working
I know that many who read this are going to want to lash out at me and will not want to view these short videos or read McCorvey's presentation. All I can say is that I picked some of the most powerful stuff available which are also rather condensed. These videos only take about 10 minutes each to watch and McCorvey's testimony in like reading a long reader's digest article... not near as long as a short book or anything... therefore, my challenge is that, if you are so sure of your pro-abortion stance... then don't be afraid to get better informed about the other side's viewpoint.
If abortion is "right" then withstanding my "onslaught" should only strengthen your resolve in your current beliefs! Shouldn't it?
(BTW - For those who had an abortion or are a party to an abortion, Jesus forgives... just as He forgives my own sins which are equally worthy of sending me to Hell. Many, many people suffer tremendous guilt and trama for years after having abortions... even non-religious people... There is freedom from this guilt.)
Posted by: Rob McEwen at April 30, 2004 12:12 AMSorry about my "clerical errors" in my previous post. I was very tired last night. For example, I meant "heart beat", not "hard beat".
Also, I forget to address something else.
>lead the cause to
>make contraception
>universally acceptable
Kriston, most conservatives I know are NOT against teaching sex education and promoting the use of contraception. The difference is that conservatives would prefer that contraception not be oversold. We expect that, along with teaching the wisdom of contraception, our youth should also be taught things like the failure rate of condoms. To not do so is shameful because it gives the teenager a substantial amount of false assurance. (This is like encouraging the kids to play Russian Roulette, telling them, "its O.K., all the chambers are empty", but there really is one bullet in this gun.).
Also, there is a point where, if not done carefully and properly, promoting contraception condones promiscuity. "It must be O.K. to be sexually active because my school gave me this condom." But just because conservatives have reservations and desire full disclosure so that children can make informed decisions does NOT mean that we are against promoting contraception.
Posted by: Rob McEwen at April 30, 2004 9:02 AM"In other words, they are not nearly as culpable as say... one who takes a knife and slit's another adult person's throat."
Then you should be advocating the murder of abortion doctors.
"Furthermore, anyone with half a brain know that if a substantial portion of pro-lifer took Kriston's bait, their actions would lead to more abortions, not less."
I must not have half a brain, since the proposition sounds utterly risible. What's the argument here, people who wouldn't have otherwise are going to go and get abortions out of spite? There are plenty of areas where, maybe partly because of pressure from local troglodytes, doctors qualified to do so don't perform abortions; if some significant number of lifers "took the bait", the number of practitioners would almost certainly drop off precipitously, making abortions harder to get and therefore less frequent.
So why not drop the excuses and rationalizations and just admit either that you lack the courage of your convictions or that the convictions themselves are pretty thing?
Posted by: Julian Sanchez at April 30, 2004 9:40 AM>advocating the murder
>of abortion doctors
Why does vigilantism have to be part of this equation. For example, I'm totally convinced that O.J. committed murder. I know many with this same opinion. But I don't know a single person that believes that some citizen should take the law and justice into their own hands and murder O.J.
However, you are correct... doctors are more culpable... but even doctors are mislead on some of the finer points. For example, in the Silent Scream video, the doctor performing the abortion had no problem with this sonogram being taped. Also, this abortionist had been performing abortions for many years. However, after seeing the actual video, he STOPPED performing abortion and never did another abortion again! Therefore, I wonder what would happen to the number of abortion providers if all med school students were required to view this video!
I live in a city with a greater metro pop. of about 250,000. The closest abortion provider is about 100 miles away. No, we haven't murdered those who tried to set up shop here... but, believe many, for any abortion provider who does try... their life would be made a living hell due the enormous amount of protests and ill-will. I am proud of this fact. But I am also proud of the fact that we have tremendously large and well funded support organizations in my area which provide pregnant teens with financial, logistical, and emotional support so that they can carry their babies to term and (if desired) place the baby up for adoption.
>What's the argument here
The argument is that murdering abortion doctors (and other relevant vigilantism mentioned so far) only sways the public to more often support the pro-abortion cause and to vote more often for pro-abortion public officials who would then set policy which would only encourage MORE abortions. Why is this so hard to understand?... but.. in a sick sort of way... it sounds like you all are hoping for more abortionist murderers. Frankly, when the current news focuses on a recent murder of an abortion provider, it gets you all off too easy by providing excursions so that you can then NOT have to deal with the issues I've raised.
Anyone read the McCorvey testimony? Anyone seen the videos?
Posted by: Rob McEwen at April 30, 2004 10:35 AMThere's a difference between murder and sanctioned killing. But it's killing, nonetheless.
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Posted by: dish network at June 3, 2004 10:19 AMDo you guys honeslty think abortion is not murder??
ok lets say i am walking my 11week baby down the sidewalk and a guy comes and kills her/him, is that not murder? same thing as a unborn child.
People say life doesnt "begin" until a human is actually born, well then what the heck are you when you are chilling in your mothers womb?
we can't go from nothing to adulthood right! we are always maturing and growing so how could we not be a living child in the womb?
now in "silent scream" it shows that the baby can feel every motion. a unborn child is like a born child...lets say you go after a born child with a pin he/she would move right? well go after an unborn child and they see something coming toward them and they move also...so tell me how is that not murder?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
God gave a warning to those who destroy life:
"Whosoever shall shed man's blood, his own shall be shed, For man was made in the image of god." Genesis 9:6.
and god made every single one of us in the image of god and if you are pregnant there is a reason, dont you think? you could be murdering one person that may change another person life.
"It is I who brings both death and life."Deuteronomy 32:39 if your gonna die your gonna die let god choose your path and stop making hasty choices and think maybe god is brining this child to you for a reason, she/he may be the answers to you many questions.
And I do not understand why the mother gets the choice over the father...don't you think the father has all the right in the world to keep their child. and i am a woman so all woman who ignore the mans right for a child are stupid and wrong
abortion=murder end of story!
Posted by: Mary at March 24, 2007 1:25 PM